Mylar v Dacron - options

Perhaps mylar v dacron is not the only option.    For cost reasons, some people would want a dacron main - the same shape as the mylar.   Is there any reason why both should not be legal?    Are there any dacron cloths which are more stable than the one we are using at present?   Non Dom's genoa comes to mind.

 

Mike

 

 

Mylar v Dacron Mainsails (again!) - Voting Intentions

VC found a good download on the P&B site about Mylar v Dacron. See it at http://www.pinbax.com/docs/Science%20of%20Sails.pdf

It adds a little bit of illumination on the subject of Mylar v Dacron, but the overall download article is actually excellent. Read the lot!!

You have to allow for the fact that H and I were lucky enough to get a good go in the sail testing session which VC arranged at Datchet - the very first Rig Testing session. H & I were pretty impressed at the time, but I'm beginning to wonder how much of that was being carried away by the whole atmosphere that weekend. I think we should go to the new designs of both jib and main - I thought that then and still do now. But lets get back to this issue of the switch to mylar mains.... Now why was that again?? We are just tumbling into a five year period of this parliament where cash for many will be severely constrained. Check the price of fuel next wednesday, and see what I mean. Now VC says he's been told that one of these new mylar mains will last 18 months, but what kind of 18 month period is that??

How many races do the big boys sail in 18 months on the circuit? Just work out your own estimate for the moment. Lets say 6 open meetings plus the Nationals. That's about 40 races perhaps? So 18 months could be 60 races - stay with me here .... If you race regularly with the Datchet Fleet, how many races do you sail in a year?? It would be in the range of 60-80 ... lets call it 80 for the minute - i.e. we take 12 weekends off in a year. So in 18 months, we race about 120 races on our sails. So if a Mylar main lasts 60 races, I have to replace it once every 9 months on average?? They would be 20% more expensive. I have a feeling that I just bought a Goacher Main a year ago and including delivery, it was the best part of £700. I expect it to last two years, maybe three. Lets look at two years - so that's £350 per year for dacron mainsails. The new mylar main is going to be around 20% more expensive - so maybe £830, but it has a life of 9 months??!! So that gives me an annual cost of mainsails running at around £1080. Have I got that right?? TRIPLE THE COST???!!! Have I got that right ?? None of this "20% more expensive" idea??!! My cost goes from £350 a year to £1080 a year?? Note that Non-Dom makes his Dacron main last 5 years, so imagine what his comparison is like!!!

How does this look to a prospective FF new comer (as opposed to us that already have one....), considering buying a good second-hand boat for maybe £5,000 ??? "Prohibitively expensive and out of proportion" is how that looks. Very off-putting - maybe "go and sail some other class", is the answer....

So suddenly with the help of several Blog contributors, my voting intentions in 2011 are now clear. For primarily the benefit of attracting newcomers to Club Racing, but also to the rest of us, I'm thinking I should vote "Yes" to the new jib and main designs, but "NO!!!" to the move from Dacron to Mylar.

Who's with me on that??

Sunday Racing Weather Outlook

The weather outlook for Sunday is light breezes (6kn, gusting 10kn - note conversion is 9kn = 10mph!!) northerly - and so a bit cool.

See you there!!

More mylar v dacron

I have had a telephone conversation with Tim Saunders, Chairman of the UK Fireball Association.  

 

The Fireballs changed their rules to allow mylar for the mainsail and the first new sails were made early 2003.   For some time, sailmakers experimented with materials and are now using a heavier grade of mylar than they began with.    There were no changes to the sail shape and dacron sails remain legal and some sailors prefer them and use them.   However, most sailors now use mylar.   At his club, which has a fleet of newish boats, the mylar mains seem to last about 18 months.    He confirms the remarks made by Non Dom about the stability of the mylar cloth - until it collapses.

 

One of the reasons for allowing mylar was to promote the image of the fireballs to compete with the growing numbers of new trapeze classes.   I asked him whether the mylar part of the image had proved beneficial.   He said he really doesn't know.   Association membership has stayed roughly the same since 2003.   Clubs have different approaches to growing their fireball fleets.    He thinks there have been much more important influences than the promotion of the image via the change to mylar.

 

I would be interested to hear from Non Dom how his old mates in GP14s have fared since they took to mylar.   In particular, did they believe that they needed an "up to date" image and do they think it has made a difference.

 

Mike

 

2011 Four Day Eventing

VC has spotted the fact that in 2011 we have no less than three 4-day weekends during the Spring, and relatively close together too. They are:-

22-25 April Easter
29-05 May Royal Wedding
04-07 June Diamond Jubilee

Given this plethora of time off from work, and the complete freedom of family commitments (!), should we as a Fleet do a special event (eg Hughsie style family regatta) on one of the weekends, or maybe have some idea which links two or three of the weekends together?? Ideas to the Fleet Captain please - and copy datchetman@flyingfifteen.com for putting on the blog to raise debate.

Dacron v Mylar/Laminated

> I was involved in the beginnings of the spec for the proposed new rig. The
> intention from day one was for the new main to be available in BOTH
> materials - Dicks demo sail was in Dacron. Sailmakers are naturally keen on
> laminated NOT because of cost, but they don't last as long! Laminated 5o5
> genoas last a REGATTA only!! I hope the dual option still is being offered.
>
> Laminated Main would look "new" and "Modern" - we don't use cotton sails
> anymore so progress isn't a bad thing! It's also lighter aloft so helps
> lighter crews. It's also see through - making the Millars less of a hazard!!
> Dacron Main lasts longer, is a proven product and would be more forgiving.
>
> Certainly the new genoa will be suitable for use with your existing main -
> giving some advantage without shelling out for a new suit straight away.
>
> Let's all have a good look in Feb when the suits of sails are with us - and
> a year old at least!
>
> VC
>

Mike Firth's blog Mylar Vs Dacron

>
> I recently visited my sail maker - as in McNamara - and
> discussed both Mylar and Dacron. He had equivalent rolls of material of each
> in stock and I can confirm that the Mylar 'felt' marginally lighter, As a
> raw material the Mylar costs the sail maker between 35% and 40% more than
> the equivalent amount of Dacron, I was given to understand that the labour
> and skills involved in manufacture were similar.
>
> I was advised that in comparable circumstances, as in dinghies and small
> keel boats, we should expect the Mylar to have approx half the life of
> Dacron. To be more specific Mylar is particularly sensitive to abrasion and
> flapping/flogging - they call it 'wragging' -. The growth of Mylar on the
> dinghy scene is associated with the growth of the new generation of bow
> sprit skiffs - euphemistically some times referred to as lollipop boats -
> where the latest materials are 'derigour' and the 'image'. The self taking
> jibs on these craft are heavily supported by reinforcement and battens,
> whilst the majority of mainsails are fully battened. Plus they are rigged on
> shore, where the carefully rolled mainsail can be fed up the mast, where it
> will be supported by the battens thus eliminating a degree of flapping.
>
> With the Flying 15, in the case of the foresail/genoa, the consequent
> overlap causing abrasion on the mast plus furling, means that Mylar is an
> unsuitable material. In the case of the mainsail, which is not fully
> battened and hence less supported, one also has to consider all that Mylar
> 'scrunched up' in the floor of the cockpit prior to hoist. This is where a
> substantial amount of attrition will occur, in addition that on the race
> course.
>
> Two significant other established dinghy classes have adopted a Mylar option
> for their Mainsails, the Fireball and The GP14. In the case of the Fireball,
> a class that was significantly under pressure from the skiff type craft, the
> members voted for the for the option because they believed it would update
> the image of the class. The average retail price hike between a Dacron and a
> Mylar mainsail on the Fireball is 22%.
>
> In the case of the GP14, the council made the decision to allow a Mylar
> option, there was no vote invited from the membership. The GP14 situation is
> quite similar to that of the Flying 15, where just a few sail makers seem to
> have developed a bit of a monopoly - cartel is perhaps too strong an
> interpretation - nevertheless some members of the GP fleet were bemused by
> the decision towards mylar. In the case of the GP14 the average retail price
> hike is just over 19%.
>
> So there we have it, Mylar costs more and sails made of this material will
> have a weight benefit, but unless correctly supported, will have a shorter
> life. Currently sailmakers are charging substantially less for a complete
> sail, than the increase in the cost of the raw material used. Is this
> because they are trying to establish a new market segment or do they expect
> to make twice as many sails long term?
>
> Non Dom
> 3559

Mylar versus Dacron Mainsails

Does anyone in the fleet have any real data on the subject of mylar versus dacron for mainsails?? I've spent some time on google looking for sound material, but strangely cannot find any......

Y&Y's Profile of QMSC

If you've not seen it, there's a pretty good profile of Queen Mary SC in this month's Yachts & Yachting. They've done a nice job of emphasising the positive, and make a feature of the fact that the water is split into parts by the headland. And the 45 degree slopes at the water's edge! Mind you, if Thames don't pump more water into Datchet soon, we basically have the same feature.... I emailed the office and the Commodore asking if we were also in the Y&Y queue for a Club Profile, but got no response. The article lists Flying Fifteen as one of the QMSC supported fleets. When I sold 3644 to a member there, I think it was their seventh FF. Has anyone been over lately to see how many Fifteens they have now?? Do they get a fleet start??

2011 Southern Travellers Series

There are a couple of changes to the Southern Travellers Series for next year. Bewl isn't part of the program in 2011 and it's two events out of five to count - Great !!  See the new information panels on the right hand side of this blog.